I was going to post about something else today, but I got into a bit of an argument on Twitter today, and thought I’d post about that, as it’s rather important for the Euro elections next week.
Now, UKIP present themselves for the most part as a single-issue party – they want a referendum on leaving the European Union (which is actually also Lib Dem policy as well,though we take opposite sides as parties on what the result of that referendum should be) but in fact they have a whole host of other policies. In particular, they have an immigration policy. That policy is to ban all immigration for at least five years, kick out ilegal immigrants, and also kick out any immigrants who don’t “uphold the Britain’s [sic] democratic and tolerant way of life, to uphold the British [unwritten] Constitution, obey the laws, and not propagate extremist political or religious views”. Which of course means they’d deport any immigrants they don’t like, unless anyone can find a more meaningful way to interpret that statement?
Now, you couldn’t actually put a cigarette paper between that and the BNP’s policies in terms of actual effect, and they’re considerably more electorally successful, so I am very worried that such racist policies will come into effect.
They also have posters up everywhere in my area (an area with a lot of immigrants) calling for ‘an end to uncontrolled immigration’. Now, I happen to be married to an immigrant (one of the white, English-speaking ones that ‘non-racist’ ‘anti-immigrant’ parties like the BNP and UKIP don’t seem especially bothered by) and know that we have anything *but* unlimited immigration here – it took several years’ work and several thousand pounds before my wife was able to get permanent residence here, and it will take more of both if she wants full citizenship. So they’re lying in their posters as well as being racists.
Now today I retweeted something the marvellous Anton Vowl said – ‘UKIP: “Saying we’re not racist means that we’re not racist, no matter how racist our policies are”‘ This unfortunately got me drawn into arguments with a few UKIPers (the ones I didn’t block straight away) and I got a bit sweary (at one point being far too rude to one particular bloke who just kept bothering me – in my defence he was being extremely irritating and also outright lying at times, and in his defence he took the abuse well – anyone who wants to see the full exchange, it was all public and my side at least will stay up at twitter.com/stealthmunchkin ).
Now someone else, not really a part of these discussions (which could be seen by following the twotter hashtag #ukip ), but who is a UKIP election candidate, posted “@stealthmunchkin is an adult, comic reading Lib Dim who is in danger of attracting legal action through his ignorance. Ignore.”
Now, apart from the thinly-veiled attempts at intimidation – the whole ‘look what I managed to discover with my 1337 skillz!’ bit when all he’s posting is stuff that’s obvious to anyone who looked at my profile – and the weaker attempts at personal abuse (being attacked for reading comics by someone whose icon has a picture of himself wearing a bow tie is a weird “who’s lower on the nerd totem pole?” game I don’t want to bother playing) I don’t believe, for a second, that it is actionable to call a party whose policies are as close to those of the BNP as UKIP’s are racist, nor to call a party who claim we have ‘unlimited immigration’ liars, and I will *not* be silenced by threats of legal action.
UKIP, if you really feel so threatened by a bloke on twitter pointing out your own policies that you’d risk the bad punlicity of suing someone him, then by all means, be my guest. I refuse to be silenced by threats from a party which, if it had its way, would have prevented my tea-drinking, Archers-listening cricket-loving wife from coming here because “Suppressing our Christian heritage in order to appease minority groups is unacceptable.” (quote from this speech at a UKIP immigration conference. Read the whole thing if you can stomach it to see what they’re really like – the speaker appears, form some googling, to no longer be in the party, but this seems to be to do with disagreements with the party’s leader rather than policy disagreements – certainly he was a member when that policy was drafted).
If you want a lot more reasons not to vote UKIP, Alex has plenty, but threatening people for exercising their right to free speech seems a pretty good one.
And remember – a vote for UKIP is a vote against my marriage…
ETA Apologies for the typos – my glasses are broken so proofreading is painful. Expect anything between now and Thursday to have some problems. I also misstated Lib Dem policy – a referendum *was* policy at one point, but I’m unsure if it is now.
Wow, I had no idea that UKIP were quite that bad. I mean, I thought they were largely a bunch of xenophobic idiots with some extremely silly and possibly dangerous ideas, but if you’re on the money about their immigration policies then they’re in a whole ‘nother category of repugnant.
Exactly – click those links and see. That speech is mostly about how Enoch was right all along…
(Also there are some other links that have been twittered by others recently making allegations that I won’t repeat because they *could* be libellous, but have a look around on the web for stuff about UKIP immigration policy and attitudes towards multiculturalism).
Dont take for granted the ignorance of the White British Public, they embarassingly sent a nazi to represent them in europe! if you cant see the ignorance and shame in that then all WW1 and WW2 heroes died in vain and remeberance day is a total and utter sham when BNP celebrate it too!
Interesting stuff. I had a brief butcher’s at their website the other week to check that all the anti-immigration stuff was still there (after someone on the blog had suggested that they weren’t all that anti-immigration).
No wonder their founder is so appalled at the monster he inadvertently created.
A brief note on style, btw – perhaps start less paragraphs and sentences with “Now,”.
Yeah, I know that’s one of my more annoying habits, like overuse of ellipses. I think a lot of my writing style comes, unconsciously, from 50s and 60s pop lyrics, which seem to start with words like ‘now’ or ‘well’ all the time (“Well since my baby left me”, “Well she got her daddy’s car and she cruised through the hamburger stand now”, “Now here we are together, this would have been worth waiting forever”) . I’m very aware of those tics in my writing, but when I try to get rid of them the result is so unbearably dry even I can’t bear to read it. I’ve given up on ever having a good prose style, and put all my energy into comprehensibility…
It does not take long to see the truth behind UKIP. Listen to Nigel Farage on Question Time, he was one sentence away from”I am not racist but…” It seemed to boil down to not being prejudiced towards black people, only Polish or Latvians.
UKIP have always tried to come across as an alternative c/Conservative party, but like the obscure English Democrats they’re merely knuckle draggers in suits.
Can you even be sued for defaming a party? I thought libel and slander only applied to named individuals.
You and your fancy book-learning and your facts and your knowledge – net you’ll be telling me the EU doesn’t cost Britain £40 million per day, or that even when they join the EU the entire population of Turkey won’t move here en masse!
Half of them will move here to claim our benefits which they will then send home to the other half, who are so lazy that they’ll sponge off us without even bothering to move here. ;)
mate the biggest blight on this counttry is the thousands of all white council estates up and down the country and the weekends of drunk white benefit scroungers going in to hospitals and being treated by…… non whites propping up the NHS!! And its funny how broken destitute refugees can come here and build businesses in Shisha Cafes and Car parks and the homegrown cant be bothered to get up and work, half of them think signing on is too much effort too! And remember 200,000 indians and muslims fought to save this country from Facism even though the biggest traitors to those fallen WW2 heroes are mainly white british doing nazi salutes with St Georges Flag on their back, Pathetic ignorant scum!
Correct. Completely and utterly true. Name an individual, you can leave yourself open, but if it’s naming an individual and doing an analysis of their stated positions while running for office, you’re pretty much in the clear as well.
Whether something is defamatory is based around the facts of the case, whether something is or is not racist is a matter of opinion, and normally comes under fair comment.
Unless you specifically state an individual is in breach of the RRA, in which case you’re a damned fool with no understanding of the law who is clearly opening themselves to action. But I can’t be arsed.
Pretty much what I thought. And of course I would never claim any individual was breaching the RRA, because I don’t have a clue what it says…
Mark Millar touted UKIP once, you know.
I think you are standing your ground admirably here, Mr H; legal threats are for weasels.
Always did think Millar was a bit of a prick. To be fair, though, people often support parties without reading the fine print.
And thanks. Nothing’ll come of it, but that they’d even say anything like that got my blood boiling.
Good work – UKIP like to pretend they’re miles away from the BNP, but in reality they’re just as sinister
I like the bit about kicking out people with “extremist political or religious views”… So where do we send these UKIPpers, then?
However, in their defence, UKIP do not align with some of the loony right in the EP that the Conservatives are going to join up with.
The english democrats are worse than knuckle draggers in suits. They like to hang out with neo-nazis and mock the dead.
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I think as soon as someone says anything faintly anti immigration they are called a racist, and the issue is never addressed. the fact of the matter is that we are a country that is short of jobs, but which has legal immigrants from eastern europe working on a large portion of our building sites and not paying tax, while British building companies go bankrupt. It is a bad decision at this point in our economy to keep immigration laws so relaxed. I don’t believe in deporting people who currently reside here because where can they go, but you cant dismiss such a complicated issue as simply a matter of racism.
The way I read the statement you quoted was as a policy similar to the one we use now but stricter, deporting people who encourage terrorism, and those who commit crimes, such as violent crime and drugs. That said, it has been largely reported that the issue of crime is a second generation problem.
I don’t believe in deporting illegal immigrants already in the country, but then again they are no longer illegal immigrants, I would imagine that the policy is simply aimed at deporting all the immigrants we pay to house in our special sites up and down the country.
I think that the time for funding this expensive endeavor of paying to keep any immigrant who knocks on our door cant be kept up when we no longer have the money to pay for them.
All that said, I didn’t vote UKIP.
Every single thing in this comment is completely, utterly, wrong. Go away and read an actual newspaper, rather than the Express, and then try to learn at least the basics of economics, before you talk about stuff you know less than nothing about. Any further comments from you on this subject, unless and until they show evidence that you have done so, shall be taken as evidence that you’re a racist cunt rather than just the pig-ignorant imbecile you currently appear.
I told you what you had to do to get further comments approved. You refused to do so, so your comments are now marked as spam. Fuck off.
I can’t believe UKIP got seats in the European parliament.
The public has had the wool pulled over its eyes and UKIP only say the negatives of being in the European union not the trade advantages.
ok just because you think of europe as libritarian and better with age gives right to criticise partys with protectionist manfestations. What about asian countrys which do have protectionist polycies you would not criticise them because your use to it being the norm there
I decided to let this one through to show the intellectual level of UKIP’s supporters…
UKIP members/supporters are undeniably racists — and further to that — complete cowards.
We had a UKIP supporter working for us in our old workplace , he accidently let slip his immigration policies one day– now we have a pretty multicultural office so im sure you can imagine the reaction , this guy was converted to normality within the space of one day — further to that he was in tears too — a grown man lol
All racists can be converted with well reasoned arguments. They are just cowards with thier own differing selective immigration policies — the severity of which differs from one coward to another, one will say ‘keep eastern europeans — the ones that look whitish, get rid of the rest’, another will say ‘keep the sexy pakistani working in boots because i get a hard on’ but get rid of the rest , another will say –‘ keep black people cos they can play footy’.
You know what is worse than immigrants in this country — fukkin lazy useless home grown chavs , there are absolutely fukkin millions of them.
I don’t take kindly to being labeled a “racist”, which might surprise you!!
Thankfully those within the party who did hold such views have left and joined the BNP. It doesn’t help when the media keep labeling you as being “anti-immigrant” that you end up attracting those very people. But Nigel Farage has done a good job in getting rid of them.
UKIP immigration policy is simple – open doors led to a wave of migration which put tension on communities. It has. Unfortunately it has given fuel to the real extremists and racists and made the situation much worse.
UKIP policy is for a points based immigration system, which treats EVERY foreign national equally, and which is within the control of the democratically elected government and parliament.
Okay, the 5 year freeze makes many in UKIP uneasy, especially us younger members, and is now not needed so much as the economic situation has led to a reversing of European migration.
But do not misunderstand UKIP. We want to address immigration in a non-racist manner (if only the media, etc, would let us). We do not want to stop immigration. Nor do we want to ‘send people home’ (the BNP policy). We have simply called for there to be a controlled system of immigration rather than an open door which leaves the government powerless to respond to concerns of voters.
Not talking about immigration – which Lib-Dem, Tory and Labour are guilty of – simply breeds extremism. The BNP success is of YOUR own making. Can’t you see that?
What is racist about having control over your borders like virtually every other country in the world?
UKIP has said that exceptions to our immigration policy would be immediate family (marriage, dependents, etc), asylum seekers, and that migrant workers would be treated separately under a work permit system.
If you don’t take kindly to being labelled a racist, don’t join racist political parties. It’s not ‘the media’ ‘labelling you’ as anti-immigrant, it’s your own policies and advertising. If you go around putting up posters in predominantly-Asian areas saying that we currently have “unlimited immigration” – which is simply a LIE, then you *ARE* a party of liars and racists.
Anyone with any experience of the immigration system will tell you that we *do not* have an ‘open door’ – not that such a thing would be bad anyway.
Whether you are racist or not – and your voting for and supporting UKIP does nothing to convince me you’re not – you *DID* vote for a policy that would have meant I could never have got married, and that if put in place would make other people suffer as much as I would have if I hadn’t been able to be with the woman I love more than life itself. So I hope you won’t take it the wrong way when I say I hope that you and all your ilk die, soon, in extreme pain.
Now fuck off.
No offense, but political discrimination is just as deplorable as racial discrimination. As such, simply writing a lengthly response to a UKIP member, who is attempting to articulate his point in response to your post, with accusations of racism, a wish for those who believe as he does to die painfully, and a request that he “fuck off” is committing a crime similar to the one you accuse his party of.
If you’d READ more of his post than the first line, he mentions, for instance, an exception for immediate family members, such as spouses. As such, I highly doubt that his voting for UKIP means he voted for a policy that said you couldn’t get married or be with the person you love.
I know its an old thread, but I simply ask, as someone who observes but doesn’t participate in EU politics, that you actually try to understand your opponents.
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People who say this always actually intend offence.
“but political discrimination is just as deplorable as racial discrimination.”
No it isn’t. One is based on a characteristic people are born with, which doesn’t affect their character or personality in the slightest. The other is based on decisions people have made which reflect their thoughts and personality.
“If you’d READ more of his post than the first line, he mentions, for instance, an exception for immediate family members, such as spouses.”
And if *you* had read my original post, you would see that those exceptions he talks about *do not exist*. Racist UKIP’s policies are very, very clear and allow for no exceptions. In other words, the person I was replying to was a liar, as well as voting for a racist party.
“As such, I highly doubt that his voting for UKIP means he voted for a policy that said you couldn’t get married or be with the person you love.”
I don’t care what you ‘highly doubt’. He *did* vote for Racist UKIP, Racist UKIP’s policy *is* to ban all immigration, even for marriage, and so yes, he *did* vote for that policy.
“I simply ask, as someone who observes but doesn’t participate in EU politics, that you actually try to understand your opponents.”
I understand them all too well. Racist UKIP are an organisation whose sole raison d’etre is hatred and fear of foreigners.