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	<title>Comments on: Interblog Circle Jerk: The Second Coming</title>
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	<description>Thoughts on music, science, politics and comics. Mostly comics.</description>
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		<title>By: pillock</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-290</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pillock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 08:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, damn, I&#039;d forgotten about your SB3D essay, actually -- a criminal oversight, since it&#039;s an example of Morrion really &lt;i&gt;pushing&lt;/i&gt; at it, and maybe you&#039;re right about it being the capper, and also I&#039;m sure you&#039;re forming my ideas as much as amypoodle is, about this all.  Re-reading what I said up above, I think that maybe what makes ASS so forceful is that it&#039;s perhaps less Prismatic than SSoV, really about the point-source...well, it&#039;s Superman, there are no disconnected &quot;Seven Soldiers&quot; to play energetically with, it&#039;s just Superman, he&#039;s the Alpha of this fictionverse.  But the vision thing, that&#039;s what makes it all work so well, I think, it&#039;s one powerful motif rendered and re-rendered to various stunning effects, in various stunning permutations...

Okay, so that does sound pretty Prismatic...

It&#039;s interesting to look back on Animal Man, now that we can see where it was all heading...I mean you couldn&#039;t miss what the Coyote Gospel&#039;s significance was &lt;i&gt;in the book&lt;/i&gt;, at least by the end of Morrison&#039;s run it was just all laid out for you there, and again it was all the &lt;i&gt;seeing&lt;/i&gt; that did it...really to look at Animal Man again there&#039;s a whole hell of a lot of &quot;seeing&quot; in it, there&#039;s Buddy spying on Cliff for example, it&#039;s really very orderly.  And, Mirror Master -- that&#039;s no accident either, right?  Grant looking for Foxy.  Just all kinds of things.  I can practically see the 3x5 cards in front of me.  Sorry, I&#039;m copying your style a bit here, Beast, because I&#039;m also trying to listen hard to something as I type, hopefully it doesn&#039;t read all distracted and blurry, I&#039;m not really very good at it...

Anyway the seeing, yeah.  But looking back on Morrison&#039;s body of work for DC, Animal Man&#039;s extra-impressive, because it really does make it look like he had everything planned from the very beginning.  And maybe it&#039;s the magic that makes such felicitous symmetries in Morrison&#039;s work, that just pop up, saving the day...you think the thing&#039;s about to take a nosedive and then WHAM!  A perfect symmetry hits you in the face.  And I think this is &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; where Moore and Morrison are most interestingly juxtaposed, because of course Moore is highly concerned with symmetries too -- I mean he did a whole twelve-issue series about them, for heaven&#039;s sake! -- but there is something almost frighteningly &lt;i&gt;jazzy&lt;/i&gt; about the way Morrison executes this sort of thing, no matter how tightly-written in 3x5 form it may be, there&#039;s still a feeling that he&#039;s dancing on the edge, and that it&#039;s all going to blow up.  And maybe that&#039;s what SB3D is for, the blowing-up part?  Or maybe it&#039;s the crazy trumpet-solo part of the whole miles-long exercise.  Maybe I should be thinking of these comics as jams, or anyway as albums.  Maybe as songs on a big concept album.

Still doubt FC will have too much to offer me in this vein, though.  I know, it sounds nuts, I mean this is what Morrison &lt;i&gt;does!&lt;/i&gt;  But really, what can even happen?  Is it all just going to come down to a killer last page, last panel, last line?  But what can it be?

I don&#039;t know why I doubt.  Morrison&#039;s been exceeding my expectations for a really long time.  But FC just seems like a song out of order with the other songs to me, like:  &lt;i&gt;here&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; the big build-up, but wait...didn&#039;t I already hear the climax to this a couple years ago, and then haven&#039;t I just finished listening to that marvellous coda?  So what do I want with the build-up?

Fully prepared to retract it all, should he astonish me once again.  And I guess I can&#039;t really specify my qualms after all.

But I dunno.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, damn, I&#8217;d forgotten about your SB3D essay, actually &#8212; a criminal oversight, since it&#8217;s an example of Morrion really <i>pushing</i> at it, and maybe you&#8217;re right about it being the capper, and also I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re forming my ideas as much as amypoodle is, about this all.  Re-reading what I said up above, I think that maybe what makes ASS so forceful is that it&#8217;s perhaps less Prismatic than SSoV, really about the point-source&#8230;well, it&#8217;s Superman, there are no disconnected &#8220;Seven Soldiers&#8221; to play energetically with, it&#8217;s just Superman, he&#8217;s the Alpha of this fictionverse.  But the vision thing, that&#8217;s what makes it all work so well, I think, it&#8217;s one powerful motif rendered and re-rendered to various stunning effects, in various stunning permutations&#8230;</p>
<p>Okay, so that does sound pretty Prismatic&#8230;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s interesting to look back on Animal Man, now that we can see where it was all heading&#8230;I mean you couldn&#8217;t miss what the Coyote Gospel&#8217;s significance was <i>in the book</i>, at least by the end of Morrison&#8217;s run it was just all laid out for you there, and again it was all the <i>seeing</i> that did it&#8230;really to look at Animal Man again there&#8217;s a whole hell of a lot of &#8220;seeing&#8221; in it, there&#8217;s Buddy spying on Cliff for example, it&#8217;s really very orderly.  And, Mirror Master &#8212; that&#8217;s no accident either, right?  Grant looking for Foxy.  Just all kinds of things.  I can practically see the 3&#215;5 cards in front of me.  Sorry, I&#8217;m copying your style a bit here, Beast, because I&#8217;m also trying to listen hard to something as I type, hopefully it doesn&#8217;t read all distracted and blurry, I&#8217;m not really very good at it&#8230;</p>
<p>Anyway the seeing, yeah.  But looking back on Morrison&#8217;s body of work for DC, Animal Man&#8217;s extra-impressive, because it really does make it look like he had everything planned from the very beginning.  And maybe it&#8217;s the magic that makes such felicitous symmetries in Morrison&#8217;s work, that just pop up, saving the day&#8230;you think the thing&#8217;s about to take a nosedive and then WHAM!  A perfect symmetry hits you in the face.  And I think this is <i>really</i> where Moore and Morrison are most interestingly juxtaposed, because of course Moore is highly concerned with symmetries too &#8212; I mean he did a whole twelve-issue series about them, for heaven&#8217;s sake! &#8212; but there is something almost frighteningly <i>jazzy</i> about the way Morrison executes this sort of thing, no matter how tightly-written in 3&#215;5 form it may be, there&#8217;s still a feeling that he&#8217;s dancing on the edge, and that it&#8217;s all going to blow up.  And maybe that&#8217;s what SB3D is for, the blowing-up part?  Or maybe it&#8217;s the crazy trumpet-solo part of the whole miles-long exercise.  Maybe I should be thinking of these comics as jams, or anyway as albums.  Maybe as songs on a big concept album.</p>
<p>Still doubt FC will have too much to offer me in this vein, though.  I know, it sounds nuts, I mean this is what Morrison <i>does!</i>  But really, what can even happen?  Is it all just going to come down to a killer last page, last panel, last line?  But what can it be?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know why I doubt.  Morrison&#8217;s been exceeding my expectations for a really long time.  But FC just seems like a song out of order with the other songs to me, like:  <i>here&#8217;s</i> the big build-up, but wait&#8230;didn&#8217;t I already hear the climax to this a couple years ago, and then haven&#8217;t I just finished listening to that marvellous coda?  So what do I want with the build-up?</p>
<p>Fully prepared to retract it all, should he astonish me once again.  And I guess I can&#8217;t really specify my qualms after all.</p>
<p>But I dunno.</p>
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		<title>By: Bots'wana Beast</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-289</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bots'wana Beast]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-289</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think Superman Beyond, honestly, particularly with the concentration on dinging the 3D device as this... interstitial dimensionality(?) is probably likely to be the final word and not a bad capper wrt ASS - you&#039;re certainly correct in saying, look at anything from &#039;The Coyote Gospel&#039; on, plok; there is essentially an ongoing treatise on the sentient fictiverse therein (I think I mentioned this in my post on SB3D? + also the going back to the very specific well of noncontinuity limbo in the latter stages of Animal Man) but it was never framed precisely or directly thus until the interviews leading into Seven Soldiers, iirc.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Superman Beyond, honestly, particularly with the concentration on dinging the 3D device as this&#8230; interstitial dimensionality(?) is probably likely to be the final word and not a bad capper wrt ASS &#8211; you&#8217;re certainly correct in saying, look at anything from &#8216;The Coyote Gospel&#8217; on, plok; there is essentially an ongoing treatise on the sentient fictiverse therein (I think I mentioned this in my post on SB3D? + also the going back to the very specific well of noncontinuity limbo in the latter stages of Animal Man) but it was never framed precisely or directly thus until the interviews leading into Seven Soldiers, iirc.</p>
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		<title>By: pillock</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-285</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pillock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:40:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amypoodle really brought it into focus for me, Zom:  all that &lt;i&gt;super-vision&lt;/i&gt;.  We&#039;ve had it before with Animal Man and Doom Patrol and Seven Soldiers, but it&#039;s so concentrated here, it&#039;s happening all the time.  Even the first issue&#039;s cover (and when I realized this I felt like an idiot for not seeing it earlier) features Superman looking out at the world of the reader, while across from him in Welles-like deep focus, at the other end of the horizon, the setting sun.  It&#039;s the width of his world.  But then you get so many other inside/outside and scale-variations in ASS, all mediated by super-vision, that after a while it adds up even harder -- we&#039;re outside Superman&#039;s world, he&#039;s outside ours, we&#039;re outside his, and so on and so on &lt;i&gt;ad infinitum&lt;/i&gt;.  It&#039;s not as showy as (say) Zatanna or Mister Miracle, but it&#039;s more concentrated and more tightly-allusive and more authorially-controlled, in the way Quitely/Morrison efforts always are.  And for me the final result is most definitely that Superman&#039;s world is &quot;coming alive&quot; before our eyes, looking out/in at us as we look in/out at it.

I can&#039;t see how anything in Final Crisis, with its emphasis on in-story logical contingency, is going to better the height of that jump.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amypoodle really brought it into focus for me, Zom:  all that <i>super-vision</i>.  We&#8217;ve had it before with Animal Man and Doom Patrol and Seven Soldiers, but it&#8217;s so concentrated here, it&#8217;s happening all the time.  Even the first issue&#8217;s cover (and when I realized this I felt like an idiot for not seeing it earlier) features Superman looking out at the world of the reader, while across from him in Welles-like deep focus, at the other end of the horizon, the setting sun.  It&#8217;s the width of his world.  But then you get so many other inside/outside and scale-variations in ASS, all mediated by super-vision, that after a while it adds up even harder &#8212; we&#8217;re outside Superman&#8217;s world, he&#8217;s outside ours, we&#8217;re outside his, and so on and so on <i>ad infinitum</i>.  It&#8217;s not as showy as (say) Zatanna or Mister Miracle, but it&#8217;s more concentrated and more tightly-allusive and more authorially-controlled, in the way Quitely/Morrison efforts always are.  And for me the final result is most definitely that Superman&#8217;s world is &#8220;coming alive&#8221; before our eyes, looking out/in at us as we look in/out at it.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t see how anything in Final Crisis, with its emphasis on in-story logical contingency, is going to better the height of that jump.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Zom</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I further take All-Star Superman to have been his big triumphant dismount from that routine.&quot;

How so (not a prelude to argument, by the way - just curiousity)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I further take All-Star Superman to have been his big triumphant dismount from that routine.&#8221;</p>
<p>How so (not a prelude to argument, by the way &#8211; just curiousity)?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: pillock</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-282</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[pillock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 09:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-282</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow, you all took me a bit by surprise with the extensive rationalism-magic dichotomy thing...and I must say I find it slightly strange that the more literal Final Crisis &quot;Sentient DC&quot; Big Idea is taken to be so new here, given that I figure that&#039;s been the subject of most if not all of Morrison&#039;s work for DC, and I further take All-Star Superman to have been his big triumphant dismount from that routine.  Not criticizing, but I honestly can&#039;t imagine what else he might have to say about it, at this point!

Love Bobsy&#039;s Geo-Force, and I think I&#039;ve got some sneaking fondness for the machine-schizoid Cyborg as well.

Fascinating second installment!  Let&#039;s have a third!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow, you all took me a bit by surprise with the extensive rationalism-magic dichotomy thing&#8230;and I must say I find it slightly strange that the more literal Final Crisis &#8220;Sentient DC&#8221; Big Idea is taken to be so new here, given that I figure that&#8217;s been the subject of most if not all of Morrison&#8217;s work for DC, and I further take All-Star Superman to have been his big triumphant dismount from that routine.  Not criticizing, but I honestly can&#8217;t imagine what else he might have to say about it, at this point!</p>
<p>Love Bobsy&#8217;s Geo-Force, and I think I&#8217;ve got some sneaking fondness for the machine-schizoid Cyborg as well.</p>
<p>Fascinating second installment!  Let&#8217;s have a third!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Zom</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-279</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-279</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Misogyny in mainstream comics, eh? That’s a big one. To begin with we need to define terms. When I talk about examples of misogyny I am referring those things (behaviours, traditions, conventions, norms, values, artworks, expressed opinions, etc…) which work to disempower women. 

My personal take on dealing with misogyny is that we need to fight the little battles. Co-worker does something iffy, call ‘em on it; friend says something dodgy, ask them why they said it; Comic book writer routinely expresses deeply unpleasant personal opinions, don’t buy their fucking comics, and encourage others not to. Look, misogyny in comics isn’t going away any time soon, because it reflects a bleaker reality: that there’s a whole load of misogyny out there in the broader culture. I don’t kid myself that I’m going to change the world, I do, however, think that I should do my bit, and that I might just manage to make one or two people think a little harder.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Misogyny in mainstream comics, eh? That’s a big one. To begin with we need to define terms. When I talk about examples of misogyny I am referring those things (behaviours, traditions, conventions, norms, values, artworks, expressed opinions, etc…) which work to disempower women. </p>
<p>My personal take on dealing with misogyny is that we need to fight the little battles. Co-worker does something iffy, call ‘em on it; friend says something dodgy, ask them why they said it; Comic book writer routinely expresses deeply unpleasant personal opinions, don’t buy their fucking comics, and encourage others not to. Look, misogyny in comics isn’t going away any time soon, because it reflects a bleaker reality: that there’s a whole load of misogyny out there in the broader culture. I don’t kid myself that I’m going to change the world, I do, however, think that I should do my bit, and that I might just manage to make one or two people think a little harder.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Gunderic Mollusk</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-275</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gunderic Mollusk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 21:00:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was kind of thinking about the odd representation of women in comics earlier today, in a bit of a cosmic hiccup kind of way. 

The key is to figure what part the narrator&#039;s taking in a story. For instance, let&#039;s take the X-Men. We&#039;re usually watching something happen to a female character through Cyclops, Xavier, and/or Wolverine&#039;s eyes when she goes through a major change. Now, what&#039;s interesting to observe is that most of the female customers I get at the comic book shop who aren&#039;t into nerd culture already gravitate towards X-Men, yet so many female leads have really awkward, nebulous powers, like weather control, phasing, psychokinesis, ESP, Telepor-flying-magic, and those that do have very direct, physical abilities received them through something as passive as absorption. I mean, sure, we can get into Marrow, Joanna Cargill, and so on, but they aren&#039;t major players. The comic book psyche still sees women as a symbol for the insubstantial and nebulous, rather than as real and direct as the male leads. 

Anyhow, with properties and conventions created in a medium that has its roots in attempts to appeal to the young male demographic, it&#039;s going to take a while to really break that. A person can rail against the exaggerations of the female form, but I don&#039;t see many major male characters with receding hairlines or paunchy guts. The key to rallying against the misogyny would be to create a female character that doesn&#039;t have to prove that she&#039;s interesting, or even better, one that can be as funny and wisecracking as the sharp-witted comic relief characters that&#039;re more often than not men. A &quot;funny&quot; female character tends to be some fashionista airhead, like in the Hellcat mini (which gave me a constant pre-migraine nausea upon reading), and if a creator could send that the other direction without having to call attention to it within his/her own work, then yeehaw! 

Then again, I&#039;m not smart enough to do it myself, so what do I know?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was kind of thinking about the odd representation of women in comics earlier today, in a bit of a cosmic hiccup kind of way. </p>
<p>The key is to figure what part the narrator&#8217;s taking in a story. For instance, let&#8217;s take the X-Men. We&#8217;re usually watching something happen to a female character through Cyclops, Xavier, and/or Wolverine&#8217;s eyes when she goes through a major change. Now, what&#8217;s interesting to observe is that most of the female customers I get at the comic book shop who aren&#8217;t into nerd culture already gravitate towards X-Men, yet so many female leads have really awkward, nebulous powers, like weather control, phasing, psychokinesis, ESP, Telepor-flying-magic, and those that do have very direct, physical abilities received them through something as passive as absorption. I mean, sure, we can get into Marrow, Joanna Cargill, and so on, but they aren&#8217;t major players. The comic book psyche still sees women as a symbol for the insubstantial and nebulous, rather than as real and direct as the male leads. </p>
<p>Anyhow, with properties and conventions created in a medium that has its roots in attempts to appeal to the young male demographic, it&#8217;s going to take a while to really break that. A person can rail against the exaggerations of the female form, but I don&#8217;t see many major male characters with receding hairlines or paunchy guts. The key to rallying against the misogyny would be to create a female character that doesn&#8217;t have to prove that she&#8217;s interesting, or even better, one that can be as funny and wisecracking as the sharp-witted comic relief characters that&#8217;re more often than not men. A &#8220;funny&#8221; female character tends to be some fashionista airhead, like in the Hellcat mini (which gave me a constant pre-migraine nausea upon reading), and if a creator could send that the other direction without having to call attention to it within his/her own work, then yeehaw! </p>
<p>Then again, I&#8217;m not smart enough to do it myself, so what do I know?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Gavin Robinson</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-274</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gavin Robinson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Oct 2008 18:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-274</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do you think superhero comics will ever stop being misogynistic? I&#039;m very sympathetic to feminism and I think all misogyny should be challenged, but it seems to me like challenging the misogyny of superhero comics is a strange combination of shooting fish in a barrel and banging your head against a brick wall. Are things ever likely to change? Do you sometimes feel that it&#039;s futile?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think superhero comics will ever stop being misogynistic? I&#8217;m very sympathetic to feminism and I think all misogyny should be challenged, but it seems to me like challenging the misogyny of superhero comics is a strange combination of shooting fish in a barrel and banging your head against a brick wall. Are things ever likely to change? Do you sometimes feel that it&#8217;s futile?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Bots'wana Beast</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-273</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bots'wana Beast]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-273</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Andrew - I&#039;d like to maybe, if you are intending continuing here in the comments section, talk about what it was you meant in saying Seven Soldiers was the way DC does events, now, because I&#039;m not &lt;i&gt;wholly&lt;/i&gt; convinced but am interested, and it&#039;s the most open-ended bit of the interview...?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew &#8211; I&#8217;d like to maybe, if you are intending continuing here in the comments section, talk about what it was you meant in saying Seven Soldiers was the way DC does events, now, because I&#8217;m not <i>wholly</i> convinced but am interested, and it&#8217;s the most open-ended bit of the interview&#8230;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Interblog Circle Jerk II &#171; Mindless Ones</title>
		<link>http://andrewhickey.info/2008/10/19/interblog-circle-jerk-the-second-coming/comment-page-1/#comment-272</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Interblog Circle Jerk II &#171; Mindless Ones]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Oct 2008 21:45:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://olsenbloom.wordpress.com/?p=196#comment-272</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 19, 2008   The Second Cumming stands erect upon the interspheres. Please head over to Andrew Hickey&#8217;s for it, i) to read, [...]]]></description>
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